Transcript

(This transcript is partly AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies.)

Heather Cook

You need to make sure that your anxiety doesn’t override your curiosity.

National Security Podcast

You’re listening to the National Security Podcast, the show that brings you expert analysis, insights and opinion on the national security challenges facing Australia and the Indo-Pacific. Produced by the ANU National Security College.

Caroline van Heuzen

This podcast was recorded in front of a live audience at the National Gallery of Australia, as part of the National Security College’s annual Women in National Security event. The college’s Women in National Security program showcases and celebrates the contribution women make to the sector. Proceeds from the event go towards WiNSPIRE, a mentoring initiative that connects emerging female leaders in national security with university students from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds. This program opens doors for mentors and mentees and empowers all participants, giving them the confidence to forge their own path and explore their career aspirations.

Meg Tapia

Welcome to the National Security Podcast. I'm Meg Tapia, expert associate with the National Security College. Today's podcast is being recorded on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, and we pay our respects to their elders past and present. Today we're recording live at Gandel Hall at the National Gallery of Australia here in Canberra and I'm joined by an esteemed panel. I'm joined by Heather Cook, CEO of the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, Kerri Hartland, the Director-General of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service and I believe this is your first public podcast so welcome, and Dr Heather Smith, National President of the Australian Institute of International Affairs and Co-Lead of the Independent Intelligence Review. Please welcome our panel  Before we start, I just want to acknowledge that we started the Women in National Security Initiative and the podcast three years ago with the goal of inspiring and empowering women working in national security. And I want to acknowledge my fabulous co-host from the podcast, Gai Brodtmann, who's here today. The purpose of WINS was to showcase the remarkable stories of leaders in this sector who happen to be women. Three years ago there was just one woman leading an intelligence agency and that was Rachel Noble of ASD. And in three short years we now have half of the top jobs in intelligence and key national security agencies and reviews held by women. And I want to take a moment to acknowledge and celebrate that. I also want to acknowledge the power of storytelling and of championing female voices, no matter the sector.  Today's theme is leadership and learning. And one of the misconceptions about leadership is that it's static. And in reality, I think certainly that leadership is dynamic and it changes depending on the environment, the organisation, the goals, the challenges, the people, the context. And so this is where I'd like to start context in which you work. Heather Smith, you wouldn't mind, help me set the scene for our audience. You recently completed the independent intelligence review and I know that you can't go into the recommendations or the specifics of it because it hasn't yet been released. But can you share with us some of the broader issues that framed the review and that frame or influence intelligence work today?

Heather Smith

Well, thank you, Meg. It's just amazing to look out and see this audience. Just so much energy and what a privilege to be up here to both share with my friends our experiences but hopefully to share some insights with you today. And I also want to just thank the National Security College and ONI for the leadership on this initiative and so many other initiatives, and particularly Caroline van Heuzen, who's just been a great leader for women in national security, so I just want to say that publicly and thank you. Big question, perhaps I'll start with some personal reflections about the context that we're operating in. I think when you look at our national security community, it's world class. It's populated with highly dedicated, capable people, obviously in the room today. It's well led with our leaders here and with Andrew over there, really high calibre leadership. They have strong relationships across the community, more broadly across government, which is really important. And it's a well-functioning enterprise, given the changes that have happened over the last several years. It's a community that's trusted by government, and it's a community that is very cognisant of its obligations in retaining trust with both government and the community. I think, you know, what the environment that we're in now, to have national security, the intelligence community, it's such a key component of national statecraft. It's an indispensable part of statecraft. It's a pivotal part of national statecraft. So it's a world, as you well know, which has more demands, is much more complex, and has many more threats than what we had, say, a decade ago. I mean, those threats are well articulated. I don't think today is about going into the threats that we face, but I would say most fundamentally we are in a world where it's characterized by a clash of interests and values. And I do quite admire Condoleezza Rice for many, reasons, but she recently wrote in Foreign Affairs that it sort of feels like we're in this period of the four horsemen of the apocalypse where we've got populism, nativism, isolationism and protectionism and they all tend to ride together. So I think it's those themes that really focus the mind on how we move forward. I think the challenges going forward are really how does the community keep innovating, how do we use technology, it's a key determinant of intelligence going forward, whether it's the threat landscape, how we think about the workforce and how we engage with partners. It's an incredibly diverse community. think that's one of the great things about our national security community. gives you great opportunities to have really important roles and responsibilities. But it's also important, I think, to keep building partnerships in and outside of that community, including the private sector, where I now spend quite a lot of my time. I can go into the review perhaps later on, but the word I would leave with you, which is why you live, is that your roles in the world that you're engaging with, it's relentless. It is going to be relentless going forward with nation state competition and challenges to our social cohesion. So this is not something that's temporary, it's something that's going to be permanent. And how you think about how do you manage yourselves and your career and leadership in a relentless environment, I think is one of the important questions going forward.

Meg Tapia

Thank you. I like the way you describe that external environment as relentless, right? It's that perma-crisis situation and you just never know when you're going to be able to get through it so you've got to be prepared for that. Kerri, I'd love to get your take on this question because Heather mentioned there intelligence as statecraft as well as innovation and diversity. Your agency lives and breathes the international world. So talk to us about what parts of the landscape are particularly, particularly on your mind as the leader of a foreign intelligence service when you're largely looking at the world external to Australia.

Kerri Hartland

Thanks Meg and thanks for the event today and just like to also add my thanks in the same way that Heather has. I think, the world is a complex place at the moment and one of the things as leaders that means for us is that we really have to be able to prioritise what we're doing because we can't be everywhere, we can't be doing everything and that's where the partnership piece really comes into play. We can't cover the world on our own and we're playing this really vital role to be able to provide intelligence where the government can't get from any other place. And so I do feel that acute responsibility that we have in such a complex world. And I think as leaders, what that means, and for everyone in this world, we have to be in a position where we can understand as much as we can about that complexity, what's happening. We have to use that to be able to anticipate what that means and what government needs from us. And then we have to be able to adapt to… So my organisation is going through some transformation and a growth period and that's result of the complexity that we're seeing in the world. We have to be better than our adversaries and I have amazingly talented people that I'm really proud to be representing here today and as one of only three people in the organisation that can declare that they work in the organisation. I feel that sort of responsibility as the leader, to be able to sort share that brilliance of the people that I work with. But yeah, I think it is about really understanding that complexity that we're working in and being able to adapt and transform as we need to.

Meg Tapia

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it's nice to hear that there are some people from your organisation here and that they're coming out of the building into events like this. That's great.

Kerri Hartland

They're always around, OK.

Meg Tapia

They're always around. Heather, ACIC has a different focus. You focus on criminal intelligence. And so I'm wondering whether these challenges and opportunities, how they play out within the criminal intelligence field, is it more complex or complicated because you are dealing with criminal entities or in some way are they a little easier?

Heather Cook

I wouldn't say they're easier. They're incredibly sophisticated. And I think the… the context of the strategic environment and the challenges that that poses for Australia are very real and is the context that my organisation has to work within as well. So it's, you know, we may not be collecting foreign intelligence offshore, but the work that we're doing, the ACIC, is about making Australia stronger. It is about building its resilience and resistance. And I spend a lot of time talking to my organization about the environment, about the context that we're working in and linking directly the work that we're doing, encountering transnational serious and organised crime to the national security imperative that we're facing in this increasingly instable and more contested environment. So I think linking my organisation's work to that environment is very important. We are in the business of protecting the Australian community. Transnational serious organized crime causes significant harm and heartache to our population, our communities, both mentally and physically. It creates the atmosphere for violence, both within families, within communities. It attacks the integrity of our borders. Serious and organised criminality, they have to get their illicit products into this country. We need to protect our borders. Our borders are incredibly important for that purpose as well our prosperity in many ways. Money laundering and serious financial crime, whether it's around exploiting tax, exploiting government funded programs, that's a serious impact on our economy. The cost of serious and organised crime is over $60 billion a year. That's more than what we spend annually on our defence budget. So I think there is a direct link between the work of the ACIC and the, the acute national security environment that we're living in. And I think it's my business as the leader of the organisation, of the leaders in my organisation, to be making that connection to our staff, you know, making them realise that the work that we're doing is actually contributing to building Australia's resilience and resistance, not just to serious and organized crime, but to the other threats we face as well.

Meg Tapia

Yeah, and that's a really nice segue, thank you, because I want to talk about leadership in the context of our national security and the agencies that you run. And I appreciate that you're giving us both a foreign lens and a domestic lens. So I think that's really helpful for this conversation. What I wanna ask is how does that context shape your leadership approach? Do you need to take a particular approach? We saw in Slido earlier a number of words that came up when people were asked, what's your leadership superpower? Words like humility and empathy. And I think you're all incredible women, but also very modest, very people-oriented leaders, is that the kind of approach that you take when you're leading in a national security context or do you need to be firmer?

Heather Cook

Heather I might start with you. Yeah, listen I think it always comes down to people and relationships. And whether that's within your organisation, whether that's the relationship you've established to your management or your leadership team, whether it's to your partners and stakeholders or to your overseas partners or to your minister's office, it does come down to relationships and your ability to build relationships and partnerships. I think, you know, Kerri hit the nail on the head. None of the work that we do can be done in isolation. We are only effective by our ability to actually connect the work that we do and work as a system rather than as a collection of silos and individuals. So I think that is a human endeavour. Building relationships, networking, you know, we're all here to do that today as well. Those relationships and those partnerships are so critically important, particularly because the environment is so acute and troubling at the moment. So I do spend a lot of time talking to my staff about the fact that, that intelligence is a service. We don't do it for ourselves. We're not a self-licking ice cream. We need to be producing intelligence that informs decision-making, that helps others to act, have enforcement powers or authorities to act. So we need to be very much in that service delivery mode, where we understand what our stakeholders and clients need, where we're helping to inform their actions, better target their efforts. And intelligence is critical to that edge, it's foreign intelligence, security intelligence, criminal intelligence. In a world where the threats are fast-paced and evolving, where our adversaries are technically enabled and moving at pace, keeping in front of that is critically important. And so those working in the intelligence space is about getting that edge, staying ahead of the adversaries, being able to use your capabilities in a way that is smarter than the bad people, and trying to keep in front of these threats. So I think that context is really important, but it does come down to that connection to mission, connection to purpose, the values that drive us to do the work that we do, the purpose we feel in belonging to a community, like the national security community. Those are very powerful drivers for a workforce, and as leaders, I think we benefit from the fact that we have such strong purpose and mission connection. It's very easy to get behind that. And it's very reassuring and I think encouraging when we look at our staff and see how passionate they are about the work that they do.

Meg Tapia

Kerri, I saw you nodding there a bit.

Kerri Hartland

Yes, yeah. Just to add to that, think the value of those relationships can't be understated and I always say that no relationship is a bad one in the sense that at different times you're going to call on different people and different relationships for different things throughout your career. So the relationships that you might form on day one in a job versus when you're top of an organisation, you might fall back on those at various times in your career and really important that we actually think in a really expansive way about those relationships if I think now in the intelligence community and I think about the people that are around the table much more the economic organisations that are around the table than ever before social organisations that were probably not part of thinking about security intelligence issues in the pat so I'd say we really need to open our minds to those relationships and the breadth of relationships. The other thing that I would add to that is that by forming those relationships of trust that you have, you can lean into them when times are bad. If you've got that relationship of trust, people will trust that what you're saying a little bit more will help you out further. That's what you really need in these complex sorts of times.

Meg Tapia

Yeah and you talk about long-standing connections. I understand the three of you have known each other for quite a while. Heather do you remember the first time you met these two incredible people and decided to start a rock band?

Heather Smith

Well Kerri was a deputy in ASIO. I was at the other end of the building in what was then ONA, not the current building, quite a different run-down building. Heather, say I'm just interacting with Heather over the years, I really can't pinpoint a time, but just to reinforce that point, my journey is slightly different, and I think Heather, mentioned it, that national security now permeates everything and we're really talking about I think leadership across the public sector in so many ways and I think all the lessons that we talk about for the intel community are just as relevant everywhere else. So for me, it's been sort of one of adaptive sort of leadership over time where, you know, you go from having content as your sort of driver to then once you move into different roles, you look up and across and then stewardship becomes really important, you know, as how do you make sure the organisation is better for you having been there. I do think as Kerri said, partnerships are really key because they're repeat relationships. Who you meet and you enter into the public service and you make networks with, you never know when you're need to draw on those networks over time. So I think that's really important. For me, the key mantra, it sounds so typical, but it is about collaborative engagement, being collaborative, being collegial with people to get things done. It's the only way you can really get things done in this environment. You know, the business school literature now is really focused on... It's not about what you've done before, it's your leadership agility going forward. How do you retain that North Star, that vision through great uncertainty? So you have to keep drawing back on these common themes about... collaboration, teamwork, relationship building. They never go out of fashion. They're really important for just navigating any role that you have as a leader.

Meg Tapia

I feel in some ways you've almost answered the question that the audience prefers most. We have Slido happening today and the audience gets to upvote the question that they would like to ask our panel. And you've all spoken about trust and collaboration and teamwork. The question is can you talk about the strategies you employ to build trust particularly in challenging or high stakes situations? You've all been in high stakes situations. Kerri I might start with you. What's your go-to when the world around you starts to get really challenging?

Kerri Hartland

So I think it is, as Heather said, drawing on that experience. someone in defence actually said to me the other day, and a number of you will know this story, one of our defence people was asked about making a decision and making this very quick decision, 14-second decision. And they said, actually, it was 40 years and 14 seconds. drawing on, as a leader, you've got to draw on all of those experiences that you have and the judgements that you've made in the past, that experience is really important. If you've got time in that decision making to be able to obviously talk with other people, work it through, and I always like to be able to sort of have that pause before you make a decision, but sometimes you will have a Minister or Prime Minister ringing you up and wanting that immediate decision, being able to buy bit of time to think back, draw on your experiences, if you've got time to draw in others. The other thing I would say is that I'm a big one for providing as much context as I can all the way through issues as they arise because there's nothing worse than actually being asked to do something and you don't understand why you're being asked, you don't understand the context. We won't always know the full context and we won't always as leaders be able to share the full context but being able to share as much as you can, you'll get better outcomes in the decision making and it just draws in that trust that you need. So I'd say more generally, and it might be something you're going to get to, but around resilience, these people around me are part of that resilience building that you have when you need to actually get a second opinion or someone that can give you an alternate view, being able to draw on that is really important.

Meg Tapia

That's great. I my good networks, of course, do that here today. Maybe don't burn bridges. Who knows who you're going to come across.

Kerri Hartland

Never know who'll be your boss.

Meg Tapia

Never know who'll be your boss.

Heather Cook

Can I just say, I think there's nothing complicated about building trust in the professional environment. It is exactly the same way that you build trust in your everyday life. You know, it's knowing people need to know what you stand for. People need to know how you approach issues. They need to understand your values and how your behaviours align to those values. It's about not playing games. It's about no surprises. It's about that empathy with the position of others, whether that's around context or simply taking the time to understand what the imperatives or priorities or pressures or constraints are, you know, with the partner or the stakeholder, whoever you're trying to build trust with. You know, it's not rocket science. It's going to come down to the humanity of how we deal with each other and how we need to work together. It's like family, it's like friends, you know, the principles are the same. So I think approaching it that way is the way I tend to. It's like, you know what you're gonna get when you deal with me. And I don't want anybody to say, well, she says one thing and does another. You have to know what you stand for or else you're not going to be able to build trust. And it is a small community. It feels big, but you do cross paths all the time with people. You just need to be able to trade on your reputation and your own integrity as a collaborative partner. So I think it comes down to that humanity and that behavioural piece as well.

National Security Podcast

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Meg Tapia

Yeah, consistency and authenticity, I think, Kerri, I want to come back to you. In talking about leadership firsts, you are all firsts. Kerri, you're the first female director general of ACES. Heather Cook, you are the first female CEO of ACIC. Heather Smith, are the first female appointed to lead an independent intelligence review but this isn't your first time that you've been first. You've actually done this before, all of you as deputies. You've also been first female deputies either internally or externally to the organisation that you've joined. These are big achievements and so I want to ask you, Kerri and you all, whether being first weighs on your mind at all?

Kerri Hartland

Thank you. First, can I just say that I don't underestimate these really privileged positions to be in. And I love being in this position every day. Being first does come, I think, with a weight of responsibility and expectation. And some of that is the expectation that you put on yourself. And it's a lot because you don't want to also be the last. I’m wanting to pave the way for others. So, you know, with that means, you know, that I do feel that pressure of, you know, striving, you know, to do the best that I can for the organisation and for the community, you know, and for the, you, the Australian public sector and government as a whole. And as I said, you know, I feel that added responsibility because I'm one of, you know, that's only of those three people that can actually speak on behalf of the organisation and I think, you know, growing that and partly why I'm here today, being able to grow that ability to understand more about what we do and also expose some of the myths is really important. We're a taxpayer funded organisation. There will always be things that I can't say but I think it's really important. But I also think you've got to balance it up with not letting that weigh you down so much that it gets in the way of doing the leadership that you need to do and being the leader that you need to do. So in the end, you're paid to make the decisions and if you're second guessing yourself all the time or thinking, gee, I've got to be best all the time at doing that, let that way down, then you're not going to do a good job. So it is that balancing piece. I'd really love to move ahead of not being novel. I think that will be a great day for all of us. I felt that particular weight in the first week that I was in this job and I went to an event, an international event, there were 27 heads of foreign services there and I was the only woman and I just thought, aren't we better than this, know, this is, the world's got some way to go. So yes, I do feel that weight but you can't let it weigh you down to point of not doing anything.

Meg Tapia

Australia clearly is better than that because we got you in that room full.

Kerri Hartland

Oh, thank you.

Meg Tapia

Yeah Heather can I get your take on this?

Kerri Hartland

-It took 72 years.

Meg Tapia

It did take 72 years but that's okay, you broke the ceiling, we'll see who comes next, hopefully female. Heather your firsts does that weigh on you as well?

Heather Smith

It doesn't now, it probably did as Kerry said when moving through other stages of your career like Kerri said I would hope that we're normalising this now that when you look around this room, I mean, goodness, it's what a great future that we've got for the national security community and the public service more broadly. So it's all of these initiatives that help bring that to a more normalised state. think it was mentioned with the Intel review, five out of 10 women heading up agencies. I mean, that's just extraordinary. It's fantastic. And we should celebrate that, but that should just be the norm, right? So similarly, when I was the secretary, there were, half of women, half of the secretaries were women. Now that will ebb and flow, but that was a high point, actually, I think, in turns, but hopefully we'll get back to a more balanced structure. I mean, I guess what I would add, though, is more about to honour and celebrate the women who have come before you, because there is a whole different generation that, opened the doors. When I was Secretary of Communications and the Arts, asked Helen Williams to come along and talk to one of our events. Now Helen was the first female secretary ever of a government department and seeing some of the younger women in the room just being aghast when Helen said when she'd walk into a room and she'd still get told, I'll have tea or coffee or was mistook for the tea lady. So, you know, it sounds like it's such a long time ago. So we really do have to celebrate those who have come before us. But I think role models are just so important. And I've had them. A couple of min are sitting here as well, we've all got role models, its really important. When I joined ONA in 9-11-2000, which is the date that sort of sticks in my head for obviously different reasons, but there were, I think there were only three, probably three women. I was the first branch head in that organisation. And same thing, going off to intellects and finding yourself as the only female at the table. But again, I think we've just got to now normalise it. I have great heart from what I see around this room.

Meg Tapia

And I'll add to that, I have both male and female role models and mentors. I think it's really important to have that diversity of mentorship. But hopefully for the men that are in this room, and this year there are more men in this room than there have been in the past, and I just welcome that so much. I hope you're able to find some amazing women role models for yourselves that you can learn from too. Heather, I'd like to ask you our second slider audience question if I can. People would really like to know what is one task as head of an organisation, as head of your organisation, that you have enjoyed to your surprise and what one task do you absolutely loathe?

Heather Cook

It's such a tricky one. Listen, I love so many things about the job and some of it's not a surprise or not new, but sometimes I think about this when I think about my younger self when I was at the beginning of my career, you know, sort of started my career as an intelligence professional, you know, trained to do the intelligence stuff and, you know, very operationally focused. And I remember looking up at, you know, the bosses and thinking, who would ever want to do a job like that, you know? The further away you get from being on the tools, you know, the less interesting the job must be and how boring must that be? And just gradually your views change, you know, where you start realising what it means to be at the decision-making table and doing more planning. So I think the thing that it doesn't surprise me other than when I think about it in the past, but I love strategy. love system analysis and seeing how a system fits together and having the levers to be able to see how you make changes, to adjust the ship and move it in a different direction. Like I'll never get tired of that. And I think, you have those levers, you have more of those levers the more senior you get. But when you become an agency head and you realize, well, you're carrying all the risk, but you also have all the levers, you know, there's something that it's just really it's interesting, it's not a, it's not about power trip it's about being able to see a system and actually see how you can make it better and how you can make some shifts. I I love that it's maybe not surprising.

Meg Tapia

I'm not letting you get away –

Heather Cook

– I know I'll talk about the thing I hate I am an arts major – finance, budget, hate it! Can do it, I suffer through it.

Meg Tapia

I went off and did an MBA because I hated it so much and I thought if I don't learn and teach myself then I'm always going to hate it and I just couldn't stand for it. can do it but don't start hating it. that's right. Kerri, as the head of ASIS, I'd love to know what one thing you loathe?

Kerri

Do I get to what I love or not?

Meg Tapia

You can also have what you love, yes. Love as a surprise. In fact, what... Was there something that surprised you when you walked through those doors for the first time? Did you have a preconceived idea of what the organisation was and so you got there and some things were like, this isn't what I was expecting?

Kerri Hartland

Yeah, so having had, I guess that's sort of six years in a deputy's role in ASIO, I thought I knew, I thought I'd walk in and sort of understand the organisation. I think probably the biggest surprise was I didn't understand the organisation, you know, and I think that different, you know, there is a difference in terms of tradecraft between the Security Intelligence Service and a foreign human collector. So that was probably, you know, the big surprise and so the amount of listening and learning I've had to do around there. But a total dedication to that mission, which was a fantastic culture. And for me, I love being able to go into organisations and look at, look at how to shape organisations to prepare them for the future. It's a really strong organisation, I walk down with a great culture, great people culture, so it's about, what's my legacy? It is a really privileged position to be in these leadership roles, to be able to shape and influence, and it comes with a lot of responsibility, but I love those people aspects of the organisation. So HUMINT is my thing because I really love that relationship building piece. A bit extroverted and like people. Look I'm not really a loather.

Meg Tapia

And you can’t take her finance answer.

Kerri Hartland

No, no, no and I don't hate finances. I did actually go away and make sure that I had done extra training but earlier in my career when I was sort of… In fact, when I went in to run the $1.2 billion access card program, I thought it was really important that I understood all the numbers there. I mean, not so much low, but I think the thing that really plays on my mind in this role is that because of the complexities in the world, and some of my people are in high-risk environments, that it's more the of the keep me awake at night piece is really making sure that the safety and security of my people. And it's different, I think, to a policy agency secretary's role in that you do feel that 24-7 cadence of work and those things are always on your mind.

Meg Tapia

And maybe not loathe, but is it challenging to be the public head of an organisation where no one else can be known?

Kerri Hartland

Yeah think it does go back to what I said you know you do feel that weight of sort of responsibility and I'm not the expert on every aspect of the organisation and so yeah it does weigh on my mind to make sure that I get things as right as possible because I'm representing my people.

Meg Tapia

Thank you. Heather, I'd love to get your love and loathe.

Heather Smith

So I love the relationships that I've formed through my career, particularly in the public service. I miss that now that I'm not in the public sector. It's a different role. So that's really precious to me. I sort love my time having new challenges, although unlike Kerry, I'm a bit of an introvert. So I've needed a bit of pushing and prodding through my career to sometimes take up those roles. But what I do like is what Heather said is just the strategic environment, the interdependence of all the issues and being able to see at a leadership level the ecosystem system and how you can influence that. I think that's something I've really enjoyed. What do I loathe? Because I'm not in government, can probably say this. Preparation for Senate estimates. That doesn't take away anything from the here comes the public service comment, anything about the accountability and the importance of set of estimates. That goes without saying, but it's a different process from when I first entered the public sector. I think we all value it. No, it's not the right word. I'd probably have a comment about what am I disappointed about, if I may. For me, over my career, it goes to how you think about leadership and how you, again, adapt your leadership in different ways. I think it's harder now than a few years ago to actually have a sole focus just on policy making. The political context is harder. It doesn't mean that shouldn't be the chief criteria, but I've found a lot of joy in just organising. Organisational culture that's where I've sort of found I guess my, my sweet spot in how do you create a culture that is really impactful? What, again, what do you leave behind? What seeds do you sow that you won't be there to see how it grows what nurturing? You can do that again. You won't see the outcome of that to me. That's very fulfilling so so what I'd loathe I guess is not Recognising that there are other ways that you can achieve impact when the trends aren't really going where they play what you think are your strengths and it forces you to think about, you know, other ways in which you can be impactful.

Meg Tapia

Yeah, and you don't become a leader because you get the job title, right? You become a leader because you've decided that you want to care for your people, you've decided that you want to make your organisation better and stronger and that can happen at any stage of your career. So for anyone out there who's just starting their journey you can be impactful even though you might not have the manager or director or you know CEO job title. I want to talk a little bit about leadership journey and in particular I want to ask you all whether there's been any key moments or key people in your journey that have really shaped you. Heather I'll stick with you for a minute because you I mean, an incredible career including as the G20 Sherpa about a decade ago in Brisbane for the Brisbane G20. Was that a career highlight for you?

Heather Smith

It was. When I say highlight, it's probably the most stressful role I've ever had in my life. And that includes having been a secretary of two different departments. So the context obviously was Australia's presidency that year had both personal and professional implications. The prime minister at the time had decided he didn't need my husband around as a secretary, but at the same time I was appointed as the Prime Minister's key envoy. So, um, which is fine. I had an absolutely tremendous experience working with Tony Abbott at that time. It was such a grind in the sense of 15 months of working obviously across...19 countries because the EU sort of gets counted as the 20th and with stakeholders I spent all the year traveling but it was very much a team Australia effort and had the most amazing people working on this all across government but it really stretched me physically and in just the intensity of it. But it was so rewarding. And this is a very Canberra comment. And for those in the diplomatic service, one of the things I'm really proud of is a three-page communique, which has never been done before. But that only resonates with a few people, as I can see.

Meg Tapia

Tell us, how long is a communique usually?

Heather Smith

About 20 to 50 pages. It could be anything. But that's actually about how you get there, it is what are the principles you take out of that year? It's really about how you build trust and partnerships across wide range of stakeholders to try to achieve an outcome was Australia at its best, given our bureaucracy and the ability of us to sort of move across issues and I said as operators one team and and you certainly learned resilience so so for me it was a fantastic experience even though it didn't feel like it at the time.

Meg Tapia

Heather, I would love to hear from you. You've recently moved into a new leadership role of a new organisation, very young, newish organisation. Have there been moments or people in your journey that have set you up well, reflecting now as CEO, you look back on your career and you think, wow, I'm glad I met that person, I'm glad I had that experience, that's really helping me in this moment?

Heather Cook

Absolutely, I think you, you, you tend to, you know, grow up as a I guess a bit of a combination of those experiences and the people who've influenced you throughout, throughout your life and That's both. You know both in positive ways and perhaps less positive ways as well I've, I've learned from everybody I've worked with, you know, I've had only one female manager or line manager my whole career. Which seems unusual when I think about it now. And I reflect on her a lot and you know the point in her career and the point in the environment which is different than what it is right now you know. Again I think about how far we've come in the last you know 15 years or so but it's 2024 and we're still talking about firsts with which I find, you know, problematic, you know, it should never have taken this long. I'm glad we're here, I'm glad we're where we are, and I think you're absolutely right that we've got, you know, pretty good parity going here. But I think about some of the journey of some of the people who struggled before me. I think what I've learned most from in my leadership journey is just observing and watching others in action. And you know, I am a people person, I am a people observer. So much of, I think, what drives me, it is around, you know, the people element of it or the human element of what we do. You know, I'm drawn to the people who achieve excellent results but do it the right way. You know, I look very closely not just about those who can drive outcomes, but I look really closely at how they're doing it. You know, what is effective in the way that they've operated. And again, throughout my career, I've seen examples of, you know, excellent ways of getting things done. And I've seen things, well, that got the thing done, but I, you know, I would never do it that way. You know, so I think you take away those lessons and it's constantly reflecting it back to yourself. You know, what resonates with me? What feels authentic to me? What did I like about that interaction or the way that person handled that particularly challenged environment and what can I take away from that? Being a constant learner and that never stops. I mean, I think all of us would agree you're learning every day. It doesn't matter how senior you are. If you're not learning then or think you have nothing to learn then you've got a real problem. But for me it was just watching people in action, watching the behaviours and how people responded to it and finding what felt natural to me, founding what felt authentic to me. And when you find that North Star in yourself and the way that you choose to be able to live with yourself and look at yourself in the mirror, when you're pretty clear on that, I think everything else becomes a lot more straightforward. But that came with a lot of observing and watching when I was less confident and less sure of things in my earlier career.

Meg Tapia

Yeah, you said earlier that people need to know what you stand for and of course for that to happen you need to know yourself first what you stand for and what you're getting out of the situations that you're in. Kerri, I want to ask you about your journey as well and in particular, know, these last two years, you're two years into a leadership role of a very established organisation, 72 years old, yes? I'm hoping you can tell us a bit about your journey, but I'd really like to know, asking for a friend, what's it like when you get that call from presumably the Prime Minister or the Foreign Affairs Minister saying, hey, we've got a job for you. It's Director-General of ASIS. What do you think?

Kerri Hartland

Yeah, it's big moment. And if I step back from that a little, the… because the getting to this position probably wouldn't have happened, well I think absolutely wouldn't have happened without probably the low point in my career happening first, a low point that I shared with my buddy here [points at Heather Smith]. And when we both found out that we didn't have a job as secretaries anymore along with three of our colleagues. And so that was, when you think that you're highly capable, competent, you think you're actually achieving and that call comes, that's a really hard day. But on reflection, this job would not have happened… which I think is the best job in Australia. Sorry, Heather. Sorry, Andrew. I would never have got there. That would not have been offered to me. think my career path would have been one of probably going on to other different secretaries' jobs and then retiring into the sunset. So I would have never had this opportunity. I honestly, hand on heart, can say that when those points come in your career and as the advice was given to me at the time by a number of mainly senior women and mainly senior women in the private sector, was put your big girl pants on, you can wallow for a moment, you can get angry, you can grieve, you can do all of that, but get out there and the way that you leave an organisation is the way that you'll be remembered. it did take some deep digging to be able to do that, but genuinely, know, forging lifelong friendships as a result of that and, you know, working through that that was a really critical part of it. So, you know, so I think, you know, that resilience piece is really important because you never quite know what's coming next. And just sort of reflecting on the mentor piece, again, I'm certainly one of those people that I had a range of mentors, male mentors coming through the public sector who in that cliched way saw in me things that I didn't see in myself and pushed me. And that was really essential and having those mentors is a really, I would say for anyone here, find mentors. Sometimes your mentors won't know they're mentors, but find people with different skill sets that you can go to that you can bounce ideas off and take their advice as well.

Meg Tapia

I just very quickly we are we've been giving the round up for five minutes and and there is one thing I want to ask but I need some audience participation. I want to talk about resilience and I want to talk about that inner critic. Show of hands if in your career ever you've had a moment where you've doubted yourself. Just about every hand in the room went up. Okay. So I want to ask you, know, short of having an amazing mentor who comes to you and says, hey, it's time to put on your big girl pants, right? Wallow for a bit, but then let's get on with it. How do you do that for yourself? So how is it that you silence that inner critic, that inner voice that we all have in order to then be able to put on those pants and say, right, today I'm walking out the door.

 

Heather Cook

I think everybody has this feeling clearly by the show of hands. And I think it's probably, I always say if people don't have that feeling, I sometimes worry, know, tending on psychopathy, you know. If you think you're all that and have nothing to learn and never doubt yourself, then that's when you probably have more problems. So I take it as a good sign when I'm questioning whether I'm on the right track. But I think that is, like it does come with time. I think it does come with building your confidence and testing your judgment doesn't happen if you don't put yourself out there. It doesn't happen as Kerry was saying, when you get knocked down that you don't get back up again and try something different or learn from it. And I think you need to make sure that your anxiety doesn't override your curiosity. That you're able to turn that anxiety into curiosity and use that to drive you to those uncomfortable moments where you think, I could never do that or that just sounds terrifying to me. All of my best experiences have been those moments where I thought it was something I knew nothing about, that I would be completely incompetent and wouldn't be able to do it. And time and time again, I realised I can muddle through this. Everybody's in the same boat. I'm learning, I'm asking questions, and I don't have to have all the answers. And even in the role running an organisation, if you think you've got all the answers, if you think you've got all the solutions, that's a problem as well. You have an organisation full of clever, interested, innovative people. You lead it by letting them rise and share and do, not by pretending you know it all. So I'm, you know, maybe that's a vulnerability or people call it about showing a vulnerability, but I have no qualms about standing up and saying, I've never done this before, this is very new to me, you know, work with me, help me along here, you know, I'm learning as well. And, you know, the minute you stop admitting that, I think is the minute you have a problem. So, yeah.

Heather Smith

So, you know, the inner critic, do you ever get over having an inner critic? I don't think you, as you said, Heather, you actually should. I'm your classic, it may not appear from time to time, but I'm the classic imposter syndrome where, you know, I could do that job, but I don't think I have this particular set of skills that you need to do that job where I couldn't see myself in, roles but others could and I didn't answer the previous question as well in terms of mentors but my goodness I've had and they've been all men they've been all men mentors who have just pushed and prodded you and given you the confidence to put yourself out there a bit and I think you know building that confidence some we were talking about this just before we started you know do you ever get used to doing this well no but the more you do it but I think the more confidence you actually get. So building in repetition into things you don't like and then shying away from those things doesn't really help you move forward. So that doesn't mean you can't be someone who you aren't. You can't fake it and I think you can't be what you aren't, but you can be a much better version of yourself by investing in yourself and just taking the time to ask those questions. And find people that challenge you and find people who aren't like you, because we do tend to go for, just find a friend because we have similar ways of thinking. I think it's important to find people who are different from you and will come and give you different perspectives and will give you a mirror on yourself that sometimes you will never find. Yeah.

Meg Tapia

I think that's great advice. I'm very prone to action and one of my greatest advice givers and mentors is a good girlfriend of mine who is much more patient. And so I will always go to her and ask her what she would do in a situation. Her view is usually very much the opposite of what I would do, and I pretty much always take it.

Kerri Hartland

I was just going to add that it's when trusted friends also come into it that can give you advice, both the leveling advice that you might need, so that you know if you've done a good job or not done a good job, but they can and do both of those things for you and point out the good but also point out the pointers that will actually help you along so that you grow and you need those sorts of people around you as well.

Meg Tapia

We're gonna wrap up in just a second. I have one final question and I'm gonna say five words or less, because I'm getting the round up. And that is the world right now, particularly complex and we'll see soon how the US election further affects that complexity but I'm an optimist at heart and even in challenge I can always find that glimmer of hope or opportunity so I want to ask you all five or less when, when you look ahead at this community what gives you hope for the next generation of national security leaders, Heather?

Heather Cook

This does. You know, the, yeah. Passion, commitment, cleverness, desire to serve the country and to make the world a better place. There's plenty of us out there that have that sentiment and that drive. So that gives me hope.

Kerri Hartland

Yeah, similarly, think people that share the values, have integrity, really understand the need for us to work together to achieve a secure and stable and prosperous Australia and region and world. And they might sound like sort of lofty ambitions, but that's what we're here to do and we're really privileged to work with amazingly creative, problem-solving people who have that dedication to the mission.

Meg Tapia

Heather?

Heather Smith

Like Heather, it's like this room gives you a great heart. was sort of reading some, it's more than five words, but reading something that said what you need now going forward is smart, heart and a belly full of fire. And for this… this group and generation that comes before them, that's going to be really important. They value the purpose of an organisation, they value the values of an organisation, and that's going to be going back to where I started on just how hard it is on that relentlessness. The only other word I would add would be humility. It's going to be really important going forward along with strength of thinking.

Meg Tapia

Well I’m… Thank you so much. I'm feeling very hopeful. I feel very privileged to have had this opportunity today to sit and speak with you and to have this conversation. But yeah, particularly hopeful after having heard from you about the approach that you take to your leadership roles and what you hope for the community moving forward. So everyone, if you will please thank our panel, please thank Kerri Hartland, Heather Cook and Heather Smith.